Curse

Hugh Manatee · Jan 03, 2010, 12:10 AM // 00:10

The reason I don't need screens to prove anything I've asserted is simply because more MoP and more HB = more death, that's the math and it's simple, even if it is 2 slots compared to your 1 "compressed" team. What could you be putting in a slot as the "compressed" N/W you outlined with heroes that could out do a team of an actual HB war with a necro hero specced to cast MoP and whatever else(or a N/A player caller with the assassin in a can and a bunch of minions from discord heroes). One must assume something specced to support the fragile frontliner.

The reason why I'm harping on your lack of party makeup details, your lack of screens when you're demanding them, and lack of specifics of your scenario is as said by the more polite guys here, you're the one making dubious claims with no proff. In HM vlox it's the slavers exile dwarves, with all their interrupts, HM buffs and whuppity ass and res sigs, they suck to fight, and I don't see how you're getting off MoP from the front unless you're like pulling with it, and after I don't see how you're surviving and damaging enough to go in less then a half hour as you claim(unless as said the rest of the party is dedicated to propping you up)...

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Pics ARE required since math is difficult, apparently. Here's a hint: what's the difference between an N/W with a 40/40 pumping MoP and a N/nothing with a 40/40 pumping MoP?

One has to stop attacking, swap weapons, cast the skills from the front line under fire while doing 0 damage and pumping 0 adrenaline to fuel the party's defense and your own offense. The other just casts on the called target from a safe distance which has been pulled to an ideal splodinating location and carries on doing other useful things like 12345ing through it's other useful skills and then recharging them instantly while the melee beats the crap out of stuff, maintaining a stream of adrenaline fueling the defense of the party and it's own offense in the process of said crap beattery.

Again, math simple, more MoP+more HB=More death=more death then less MoP and less HB which is what your guys bring to the party. Even if the 1-3 sec thing isn't true(though it's pretty close, the long part is the pull, once they're set up and MoP is applied, they do blow up that fast), a party with a W/whatever with a N/A will blow stuff up faster then a N/W with a whatever.

maxxfury · Jan 03, 2010, 01:20 AM // 01:20

The advantage that been a x/w is over the caster role you would play is that SY IS broken and a second rate melee outputs more dp than most casters could even with a r12 mastery, provided your team is specced for a melee.

Its already shown/known that melee > casters for damage output in general,
add that to a broken +100 party armour buff.

Wether you should be compressing the bar to the point were you having stop hitting stuff to cast your proactive hex/buffs ect i very much doubt, but running your caster as a melee isnt persay a bad idea in a H&H team.

Now if you let you heroes do the buffing like any other primary melee would, that wold be a better use of time an resources, as you would always be hitting stuff "doin your job as a frontliner" instead of takin twice as long due to stopping to cast n shit.

But i must agree on one level that faking a melee and spamming SY on its own could be an advantage over casting or been a bitch for ai melee in a one 1/7 team.

This only applies if you cant use a melee or other class, and your stuck on a caster in the context of a 1/7 H&H team. Outside of that the rest of the players have pve skills too, and should have that covered so you can be a caster bitch and do moee useful caster things, like buff the real melee

AtomicMew · Jan 04, 2010, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Wether you should be compressing the bar to the point were you having stop hitting stuff to cast your proactive hex/buffs ect i very much doubt, but running your caster as a melee isnt persay a bad idea in a H&H team.

That's a fair point. However, you're assuming that a caster would be required to spend lots of time casting proactive buffs. I don't believe that's true. MoP is 1.75 seconds every 20 or so. Even if this were true for the necromancer it certainly isn't true in general. For example, even something simple as:

Mo/W
[Strength of Honor][rest of build]

Requires no pro-active buffs, provides compression (instead of smite on your MM, you could take another copy of splinter) and a stronger SoH than you would normally have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh

The reason I don't need screens to prove anything I've asserted is simply because more MoP and more HB = more death, that's the math and it's simple, even if it is 2 slots compared to your 1 "compressed" team.

You've stated that an N/A + HB war heroway is better than anything a HB necro heroway can do. You are FAR from proving this and it is FAR from simple.

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The reason why I'm harping on your lack of party makeup details, your lack of screens when you're demanding them, you're the one making dubious claims with no proff.

My claims are no more or less dubious than yours.

I'm more than willing, but what's the point? I mean, would you concede the argument? You mantra "screen shots not required," yet here you are requesting them and expect me to believe you don't have a completely absurd double standard? Should we just trust you, trust all your claims, and throw all objectivity out the window at the same time?

When you are ready to have a fair comparison, let me know. I've suggested one, and that is vloxen. The fact that you fervently ignore an objective means of comparison tells me that you simply aren't capable of standing up to that measure. There is little point in posting a screenshot if you won't engage me on a level playing field.

maxxfury · Jan 04, 2010, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

That's a fair point. However, you're assuming that a caster would be required to spend lots of time casting proactive buffs. I don't believe that's true. MoP is 1.75 seconds every 20 or so. Even if this were true for the necromancer it certainly isn't true in general.

I was taking your example of:

HB
Whirlwind Attack
Sun and Moon Slash
MoP
Barbs
Riger Mortis
SY!
Drunken Master
11 Sword, 12+3+1 cruses, 6+1 SR.

There rigor, mop and barbs cast times all add up

with barbs been a real pita cast when it would be usefull, ie cleaning up stray mobs who didnt die in the mop/splinter nuke, when you should be smashing then upside the head with your pointy stick!

And if your not using them often, then do they all really warrent the slots?

The casting of mop can be awkward as hell also to get to work properly and still keep up your melee. Do you cast it first and risk the mob been totally out of position charging your party as you get in bubble range to cast or risk it been removed? or get in and 'hold agro' around you and stop to cast it? cutting your melee offence further.

Both cut down the effectiveness of mop nuking, too much for my liking compared to taking the midline bitch bars you would normally take for a regular frontliner.

Tho faking a melee with sy has merit! in h&h.

HigherMinion · Jan 04, 2010, 01:54 AM // 01:54

If the purpose of this caster is for SY!, I would much prefer a build without cast times and dedicated to maintaining SY!
And also with a spear, must safer for a caster. Especially when the caster is going to be a target 80% of the time.

AtomicMew · Jan 04, 2010, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

There rigor, mop and barbs cast times all add up

with barbs been a real pita cast when it would be usefull, ie cleaning up stray mobs who didnt die in the mop/splinter nuke, when you should be smashing then upside the head with your pointy stick!

MoP doesn't take up much time at all. Neither does RM, since it's very situational. You may have a point with barbs. Though for the record, I took frenzy/asura scan through vloxen, rather than barbs/drunken master.

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The casting of mop can be awkward as hell also to get to work properly and still keep up your melee. Do you cast it first and risk the mob been totally out of position charging your party as you get in bubble range to cast or risk it been removed? or get in and 'hold agro' around you and stop to cast it? cutting your melee offence further.

MoP casting is not awkward at all. Charge up adren, MoP followed immediately by whirlwind + S&M. There's no chance for a scatter.

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And also with a spear, must safer for a caster. Especially when the caster is going to be a target 80% of the time.

The problem with spear, though, is you won't be doing any damage. Safety is not an issue; as long as you maintain PS, your henchies should be able to take care of the rest.

reaper with no name · Jan 04, 2010, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Question: How much alcohol do you have to consume to keep this build working?

That right there should tell you all you need to know about it's (in)effectiveness. The fact that a warrior doesn't have to constantly drink tons of alcohol to get a good IAS (which is important, because more attacks = more triggers for MoP) is a huge advantage.

Also, your assertion that armor doesn't matter is ridiculous. Even with PS on you constantly, not every attack will take more than 10% of your max health. No, sorry, scratch that. I should have said "a warrior's max health". That's why warriors in PvE usually don't use frenzy unless they've got someone maintaining protective bond on them or something (and that's not easy to come by). So, yes, armor does still matter.

Heck, I'm not even sure your assertions that N/W do more damage than W/N are true. I don't see any math. Do that, then we'll talk.

Oh, and are you honestly trying to convince us that two builds specialized to synergize with one another are less effective than one build that does what those two do but crappily plus another build (maybe an MSDB sin? Another monk?). What could you possibly bring that would bridge the gap in effectiveness? Until you can answer that, you won't be able to convince anyone of anything.

Party compression is a significant advantage, yes. But you've also got significant disadvantages.

Xenomortis · Jan 04, 2010, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

That right there should tell you all you need to know about it's (in)effectiveness. The fact that a warrior doesn't have to constantly drink tons of alcohol to get a good IAS (which is important, because more attacks = more triggers for MoP) is a huge advantage.

The two Warrior IAS that are common are Flail and Frenzy. As a caster, you can take Frenzy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Even with PS on you constantly, not every attack will take more than 10% of your max health. No, sorry, scratch that. I should have said "a warrior's max health". That's why warriors in PvE usually don't use frenzy unless they've got someone maintaining protective bond on them or something (and that's not easy to come by). So, yes, armor does still matter.

A Warrior will want to maintain Frenzy all the time unless they become the focal point of damage. Even then, when under PS and SB it becomes less scary and Frenzy makes little difference (SB triggers more often). That's why Warriors tend to bring a cancel stance - for when the prots fail and the mob turns to them.

Keeping Prot Spirit on yourself is easy to do and requires a minimal amount of micro ability.

Windf0rce · Jan 04, 2010, 01:36 PM // 13:36

I use this on my Monk on easier vanquishes, HM missions, or when helping a guildie in Normal mode (my heroes usually being Sab/Discord):

Mo/W
12 Swordsmanship
9 Tactics (shield requirement, the 16 extra armor helps a lot)
9+1+1 Smiting Prayers

Hundred Blades [E]
Whirlwind Attack
Sun and Moon Slash
Savage Slash
Asuran Scan
"For Great Justice!"
Drunken Master
Strength of Honor

Maintain SoH on yourself for more damage (or have a hero to do it if you have energy problems), maintain Drunken Master for IAS and IMS, use FGJ before charging in. Hex target with Asuran Scan.

Works fine specially if Necros have Barbs/MoP.

AtomicMew · Jan 04, 2010, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Question: How much alcohol do you have to consume to keep this build working?

That right there should tell you all you need to know about it's (in)effectiveness.

Zero alcohol...? Same as warrior. I'm not sure why you believe that a war has any more or less need to take alcohol, unless you think that drunken master is a bad IAS. In that case, you can always take frenzy.

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Also, your assertion that armor doesn't matter is ridiculous. Even with PS on you constantly, not every attack will take more than 10% of your max health. No, sorry, scratch that. I should have said "a warrior's max health". That's why warriors in PvE usually don't use frenzy unless they've got someone maintaining protective bond on them or something (and that's not easy to come by). So, yes, armor does still matter.

It does not. If I maintain prot spirit and henchmen healers can do the rest, then there is no loss, since it's not like henchmen healers can spend time to contribute to offense, anyway. At the very MOST you need to maintain PS and manual spirit bond, which is also a minimal loss, since it's 1/4 cast and your ER hero would likely NOT be spamming as much as possible anyway.

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Oh, and are you honestly trying to convince us that two builds specialized to synergize with one another are less effective than one build that does what those two do but crappily plus another build (maybe an MSDB sin? Another monk?). What could you possibly bring that would bridge the gap in effectiveness? Until you can answer that, you won't be able to convince anyone of anything.

I have convinced several people so far.

N/A is just not an effective hero in higher end PvE, especially in a place like vloxen where it is more difficult to guarantee AP trigger.

I have asked repeatedly for evidence to the contrary, yet no one has even as much stated that vloxen is possible with an N/A hero, much less offered a screenshot of doing <30 minutes. Until you have validated N/A MoP, you have no business telling me that my heroes, or any heroes for that matter, are more or less effective.

AtomicMew · Jan 04, 2010, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Heck, I'm not even sure your assertions that N/W do more damage than W/N are true. I don't see any math. Do that, then we'll talk.

Here is the damage calc:

N/W has 11 sword and 16 curses
W/N has 16 sword, 10 curses and 9 strength
Armor was taken as the average of vloxen HM foes (60+6*3+10), armor pen. and customization taken into account. WW armor-ignoring damage and SoH were ignored, since they are the same for both.

Code:

Warrior:
#foes adj	whirlw dmg	#MoP dmg	Total
			
1		38.17		0		38.17
2		108.36		90		198.36
3		210.55		240		450.55
4		344.76		450		794.76
5		510.97		720		1230.97

Necro:
#foes adj	whirlw dmg	#MoP dmg	
			
1		25.46		0		25.46
2		76.77		126		202.77
3		153.94		336		489.94
4		256.96		630		886.96
5		385.83		1008		1393.83

Winterclaw · Jan 04, 2010, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Total damage with a separate warrior and necro would be 1500.

I'm not sure why you are going 16 swords/curses because I can't think of any important breakpoints.

AtomicMew · Jan 04, 2010, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Total damage with a separate warrior and necro would be 1500.

~300 more damage divided by 5 foes. So an extra 50-60 AoE is worth an additional character slot? Way to support your argument.

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I'm not sure why you are going 16 swords/curses because I can't think of any important breakpoints.

I take superior runes bc they are better.

Winterclaw · Jan 04, 2010, 08:37 PM // 20:37

A warrior and a necro can bring along more skills and provide for more flexibility.

And superior runes are not inherently better.

Xenomortis · Jan 04, 2010, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

A warrior and a necro can bring along more skills and provide for more flexibility.

And superior runes are not inherently better.

Henchmen have 480 health and base armour.
Even with a Superior rune, it is not difficult to exceed 480 max health and have +AL Insignia. You can also take a shield.
You should also be under PS near constantly.

You will not be a priority target until you use SY and when you are, you'll have PS and probably several other prots.
There is little reason to not take the extra damage a Superior rune offers.

Although I admit, I would not normally take Sup runes on a frontliner.

Tenebrae · Jan 04, 2010, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

A warrior and a necro can bring along more skills and provide for more flexibility.

A lot of it . Ofc calculations dont count KDs and interrupts that N/W can suffer ( oh yes , in many situations ) neither casting times ( not attacking ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

And superior runes are not inherently better.

At least not on a warrior. Funny to state during more than the half of the thread that theres no diff between Swd12-16 in that combo and all of a sudden W has Swd16.
I think 14 will suffice and armor taken as an average ? lvl 26 foe +10 armor from what ? . There are so many factors there in the damage calculation ( foe lvl , inherent prof armor bonus, AP from weap ) .... not worth the pain imho but like Winterclaw said , i think the W + N/A are on 1500+ .

AtomicMew · Jan 04, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

A warrior and a necro can bring along more skills and provide for more flexibility.

Wait, wait wait, so even if the warriur brings HB+WW, you mean a necro can bring HB+WW for an additional ~1500 damage?

maxxfury · Jan 05, 2010, 01:38 AM // 01:38

sidenote:
with a mopnuker you get a mop, rigor, barbs, sin ect EVERY kill compared to one mop/rigor every 20 seconds with a n/w.

The fact the mop chain is ready every kill pulls it out ahead of the battlemages one every 20 seconds.

Thats why the Mop nuker is so effective.

In a 1p/7henchies situation taking mop vs not taking mop is an easy choice! as no henchie's have access to it

Thats when bar compression shines, when you need to make up for the lack of adjustable skills on hench.

But for H&H id take an ap nuker hero with additional curse skills as well as the battle mage.

Its just quicker and smoother with no down time, meaning i can charge into the next group, clear the whole place faster and get back in time for breakfast first!
rawrr faster pussycat! rawrr!

People have already made their minds up here one way or the other so i wouldnt even think of trying to change them, its just how i see it. Peace!

AtomicMew · Jan 05, 2010, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

with a mopnuker you get a mop, rigor, barbs, sin ect EVERY kill compared to one mop/rigor every 20 seconds with a n/w.

Except you don't because you won't be able to guarantee a kill like that in hard areas. Seriously. Just try vloxen, SoO or slavers. N/A is one of the worst heroes to take. If you disagree, offer proof to the contrary.

Quote:

People have already made their minds up here one way or the other so i wouldnt even think of trying to change them, its just how i see it. Peace!

Yes, except when they ignore evidence and any rational means of comparison. Then it just strikes of delusion.

reaper with no name · Jan 05, 2010, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The two Warrior IAS that are common are Flail and Frenzy. As a caster, you can take Frenzy.

A Warrior will want to maintain Frenzy all the time unless they become the focal point of damage. Even then, when under PS and SB it becomes less scary and Frenzy makes little difference (SB triggers more often). That's why Warriors tend to bring a cancel stance - for when the prots fail and the mob turns to them.

Keeping Prot Spirit on yourself is easy to do and requires a minimal amount of micro ability.

Ok. But the whole point I was making is that armor does indeed matter even when PS is on you. All those wand attacks from the monsters add up very quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Zero alcohol...? Same as warrior. I'm not sure why you believe that a war has any more or less need to take alcohol, unless you think that drunken master is a bad IAS. In that case, you can always take frenzy.

It does not. If I maintain prot spirit and henchmen healers can do the rest, then there is no loss, since it's not like henchmen healers can spend time to contribute to offense, anyway. At the very MOST you need to maintain PS and manual spirit bond, which is also a minimal loss, since it's 1/4 cast and your ER hero would likely NOT be spamming as much as possible anyway.

I have convinced several people so far.

N/A is just not an effective hero in higher end PvE, especially in a place like vloxen where it is more difficult to guarantee AP trigger.

I have asked repeatedly for evidence to the contrary, yet no one has even as much stated that vloxen is possible with an N/A hero, much less offered a screenshot of doing <30 minutes. Until you have validated N/A MoP, you have no business telling me that my heroes, or any heroes for that matter, are more or less effective.

Unless you constantly consume alcohol, a N/W cannot hope to match the effectiveness of even a W/N (slower attack speed = less MoP triggers in a given time frame), let alone a W + N combo.

N/A can bring any number of other skills to the table that would be effective. EVAS and PI, for example.

Nevermind the other skills the warrior can bring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Here is the damage calc:

N/W has 11 sword and 16 curses
W/N has 16 sword, 10 curses and 9 strength
Armor was taken as the average of vloxen HM foes (60+6*3+10), armor pen. and customization taken into account. WW armor-ignoring damage and SoH were ignored, since they are the same for both.

Code:

Warrior:
#foes adj	whirlw dmg	#MoP dmg	Total
			
1		38.17		0		38.17
2		108.36		90		198.36
3		210.55		240		450.55
4		344.76		450		794.76
5		510.97		720		1230.97

Necro:
#foes adj	whirlw dmg	#MoP dmg	
			
1		25.46		0		25.46
2		76.77		126		202.77
3		153.94		336		489.94
4		256.96		630		886.96
5		385.83		1008		1393.83

And that's it? 160 damage difference spread out over 5 targets in the best case scenario? You're telling us that's worth all the alcohol you have to consume (otherwise, a W/N would win out easily due to a superior IAS), and the risk that comes from putting a squishier character at the front lines, and the extra party slot that you quite frankly don't even need?

And here's another thing: cast times.

Your N/W has to waste time casting before he can go attack the mobs. A N/A and W combo can do both at the same time. By the time you've started attacking, a W and N/A combo will have already gotten off a couple of WAs.

I remain unconvinced.